"After my daughter's basketball team (12U) played in the Nationals, several families pulled their daughters from the club because coaches were extremely harsh and loud when they fell behind in a game and then they upped the cost, saying they were now the "Elite Club" in the area. My daughter is now with a club that isn't as competitive, but whose coaching staff embraces PCA and believes in skill development more than win/loss stats. The problem: our daughter wants to return to her old team. She says she didn't mind getting yelled at and she misses her friends. The old club wants her back and says they would waive her player fees. Should we let her return or encourage her to give her new team more time?"
-- Anonymous
Posted by David Jacobson at 12/16/2009 10:16:08 AM |
Seems like you should tell the club that you'd love to bring your daughter back but they should promise to follow PCA guidelines. Programs can still be effective and "winning" without being abusive. Perhaps this approach will have a positive influence on that club long term.
Greg
Posted by: Greg ( Email: ) at 12/16/2009 10:58 AM
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This is a tough situation. I suggest that she does return to her team but when returning, the issues should be brought up immediately with your daughter first to get her to understand your point of view and perhaps come up with a compromise if this situation ever arises again. Second, setup a meeting privately with the coach and express your concerns and reasons. Then come up with some kind a resolution for such future events. Last, if you are not satisfied with the coach's resolution, speak up with the club director as a last resort. If there is a conflict of interest, then it would be best then to part ways.
One thing that I learned from the USA Volleyball coaches' clinic is the difference in coaching boys and girls,
"Men battle to bond, women bond to battle".
Good luck this season. I hope you find this helpful
Posted by: Yo-han Tung ( Email: ) at 12/16/2009 11:22 AM
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Everyone respond differently to every coach or coaching style. As long she's not giving up on the aport, that's great. How did she she feel about her previous coaches, especially their style when they're down in games? Personally, ive always liked the yeller and sceamers because I looked at as a challenge to get them to not yell at me becasue I was paying attention and doing as they asked. You can almost tell the differecne in loud coaches whether they're that way because of their competitive spirit or, because they don't like to lose. The latter of course, can be detrimental.
Posted by: Kevin ( Email: ) at 12/16/2009 11:25 AM
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There are reasons parents remove their children from, a could be harmful environment. If what you feel you took her away from is justifiable to you as a parnet then you stand behind your beliefs and keep her in the new league. She will Adjust and grow as long as she can play the sport. Children will be moved around and have to adjust to many NEW environments in life, this is just the beginning. The fact that the team is willing to waive her league fees and other such BRIBER is a way of hiding some of the things they are doing wrong..this is also a dead give away that your daughter may be better off staying with the new squad. Always remember there is no such thing as an "ELITE" team in childrens sports. No one is getting paid except for the clubs!! So sometimes being on a not so good team makes your child better. I can not stand to see a stacked team beat up on a team that is trying to find chemistry and learn to get better at a sport. It creates a false sense of indvidual security for the children on this "Elite" team. What happens in life when they need to face new challenges without there ELITE team mates? CAN THEY DO IT? I feel you are getting great coaching from a class organiztion that respects the way sports should be taught as well you are giving your daughter an early test of life that will ultimately make her STRONGER Physically and Mentally at some point she will come to understand that a Yelling Coach is not always the key to winning. As a Parent YOU have to determine the environment you want your child raised and taught in. I think you made the right move and I hope this helps you remain confident about it- Coach Mike Wright
Posted by: Andrew Mike Wright ( Email: ) at 12/16/2009 11:29 AM
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I coach a high school varsity soccer team. My players play for a number of club teams, with a variety of coaching styles.
Some of the skills I hope to teach are thinking for yourself, making quicker decisions under pressure and communication and respect between players. The players who are coached by the yelling continual instruction type coaches have a hard time making quick decisions. They have been taught to rely on the coach to tell them every move and are unable to read the game with enough confidence to execute instant decisions on their own. We loose scoring opportunities.
Additionally I have noticed that the coaches who yell and berate players, bond with those players in a specific way. Some players want nothing to do with this kind of coach. Some players, however, form a strong bond with these coaches, depending on them for every move. I think this dependency hints at the bond you see between women and abusive men.
I would think long and hard about moving your 12 year old back on the team with the harsh coaching.
Posted by: Pamela Wiley ( Email: ) at 12/16/2009 11:35 AM
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I would encourage her to give her new team a chance but I would also have a conversation with her about what is really important in sports. For example, is winning all that matters even though with that comes verbal outbursts and threats. Because if it is then let's encourage all of our daughters to work for and/or marry individuals who are winners. And of course you would want to define a winner by your own parenting standards and not others or the world. But I would also encourage her by saying that no matter what team she is playing for she can still do her best and that is what is most important to any team. Even a team that is losing a lot can be a success if its team members consistently give their very best to each other and the game. After all if its just about winning then all players no matter the skill level are subject to being replaced by a better, stronger, faster and more skilled player.
Posted by: Coach White ( Email: ) at 12/16/2009 11:37 AM
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In my opinion, there are a few problems here. It seems like she is currently in the best situation for learning the game and learning the values that come with playing competitive sports. However, if she's not happy, she will not get much out of it. A club waiving a players fees to entice them to their team away from another team is usually in violation of most youth sports rules or at the very least their code of ethics. Most good clubs have scholarship programs so players of lesser financial means can still be accomodated but using that to specifically "recruit" players away from another team crosses the line and to me, that is the bigger picture here. Yelling at players, although not my coaching style, is not necessarily an indication of bad coaching. In fact some players prefer it and I have had players leave my team because I don't yell at them when they lose. However, "attitudes are contagious" and loud coaches typically create loud players who refuse to take responsible for their own actions. My suggestion would be for your daughter to try to understand that her development as a player will most likely be better with her new team and maybe she should try to get some of her friends on that team (without violating any ethics codes) which would then be the best of both worlds. If thats not possible, maybe an increased effort to make close friends with her new teammates would help.
Posted by: Rob Rodriguez ( Email: ) at 12/16/2009 12:10 PM
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I would prefer to see any child playing on a team driven by PCA's ideals rather than on a team that tolerates and encourages coaches who are motivated by the harshness described in the question. Coaches who seek to motivate by intimidation do not understand the greater strength of positive motivation. Discipline and hard work yes, but verbal abuse no. True leaders know where to draw the line.
I would applaud the parents who have pulled their daughters from the so-called elite basketball team, but the final decision about team membership must be sorted out by each girl's own parents themselves.
On the one hand, I can think of plenty of reasons why loud, verbally abusive coaching is a bad influence for youngsters. Continual verbal assaults can damage players' self-esteem and may lead them to quit in their teen years, when participation in sports remains so important because unsavory activities also beckon. The harshness of verbal assaults can also escalate over time once coaches think they can get away with it. Coaches willing to compromise a teen's emotional well-being today might be willing to compromise the teen's physical well-being tomorrow, for example by coaxing an injured player to remain on the court. Unless your family's circumstances require assistance, the so-called elite team's willingness to waive your daughter's fees should also raise a red flag because twelve seems to be a mighty young age to be buying players.
On the other hand, teens feel a strong need to "belong," and your daughter might lose interest in basketball and perhaps quit altogether if you deny her the opportunity to play with her friends. Believe it or not, kids sometimes know how to “zone out the coach” and play with and for their friends. Your daughter’s desire to be with her friends seems very strong because she seems willing to endure verbal abuse from her coaches that she would likely not willingly endure at home from her own parents.
Ultimately it is the parents' call whether to let the child decide which team to play for, or whether to make the decision for the child. Twelve-year-olds are not on a decisionmaking par with their parents, but the parents must decide how to handle the situation because they know their own child best.
You should think strongly about setting your own daughter’s ethical compass the same way as the parents who have already removed their daughters from the elite team. You should be particularly concerned that these “elite” coaches have still not gotten the message after other parents have gone elsewhere so soon after the team advanced to the Nationals. If you do make the decision for your daughter, you should explain yourselves fully and fairly to her.
If you allow your daughter to play on a team whose coaching is less wholesome than you would like, you need to monitor the situation by observing practices and games carefully to make sure that the coaches do not cross a line (into vulgarity, for example) that you find truly unacceptable. Without crossing the line yourselves into undermining the coach at home, you might also use the coaches’ verbal abuse as “teaching opportunities” to talk with your daughter about the importance of a civil tongue. In other words, you must continue to talk with your daughter and, sometimes even more important, to listen.
Doug Abrams
Posted by: Doug Abrams ( Email: ) at 12/16/2009 1:15 PM
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My two cents focus on the patterns that are being established for later in life. As was mentioned above, a yelling, borderline abusive coaching style can become an accepted behavior for future friends, spouses and employers.
In my "adult" world, would I take a higher paying job (waive your league fees), knowing the company is top in it's industry (elite team) and likely puts a lot of pressure on its employees for performance? Would I accept a micro-managing boss who may be sitting in a boardroom full of my customers, where I'm the presenter and have him or her constantly interrupt me to get their agenda across?
I know personally, I don't thrive under those circumstances, however there may be some that do. For me, that's the thought process I use to gauge whether I'd encourage my daughters to participate or how I'd coach any of their teams myself.
Good luck and use the opportunity as a great conversation tool as your whole family arrives at a decision together.
Posted by: Mark Westgate ( Email: ) at 12/16/2009 6:50 PM
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That's an interesting situation. I'm sure it's not that your daughter doesn't mind being yelled at, it's that she is willing to put up with it to play sports with her friends. That's what youth sports is mostly about. However, it's important to teach kids about respecting the game and the people in it. I applaud those who pulled their kids out. You might want to reach out to her friends' parents to discuss what they think and possibly join another club together, or forming a new team. Playing sports with her friends is important to her now, but the yelling, stress on winning, etc. can have long term consequences for life skill development. As parents, we have to make those tough choices. Good luck!
Posted by: Mark Federmeyer ( Email: ) at 12/16/2009 7:42 PM
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Hello....Pamela Wiley stated it VERY well above. I coach a High School Trap Shooting Team in Wisconsin, and have learned that yelling/berating/constantly critisizing etc. in the long run gets you/athlete NOWHERE! This usually comes from coaches that will pull all the stops so that they dont lose and look bad.
Remember 1 thing, they should be teaching and reenforcing life lessons! Most kids will not play these sports after High School....this should be a pleasant experience for them, taught team work, how to accept winning and losing and building CHARACTER! Not dependency!!
Good Luck...I think you made the right choice...
Posted by: Tom Wondrash ( Email: ) at 12/17/2009 5:59 AM
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You know this is a really rough situation you are in. Why does your daughter enjoy the yelling? Is it that she doesn't have the confidence that she can play without instructions yelled from the sidelines? Is it that she just is willing to put up with it to be back in familiar territory rather than new territory where things are unfamiliar and scary? She needs to understand that life doesn't have to involve yelling and negativity and chess-like instruction to play the game she obviously knows well. I wouldn't put her back on the other team, I applaud you for stepping up and changing for her. You are her best advocates, what you felt for your daughter was your inner lion saying, no I will not allow this to continue any more. I'd even write a letter to the prior coach explaining why you made the choice you did and give him some positive ideas to make change to encourage him to do better. Build up your daughter's confidence, remind her she was part of a winning team and as such she obviously has gained much knowledge and she can take that and help her new teammates in a much more positive manner. Take every moment to build her up and remind her that life is not screaming and yelling commands, that is not a good way to allow a daughter to think, she might get into a relationship that is like that and feel it is okay, and it is not.
My hat is off to you for standing strong and making the right decision. You rock as parents!
Posted by: Kelly Lehman ( Email: ) at 12/17/2009 6:03 AM
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There are several issues in this weeks question; As a parent what's best for MY daughter, don't worry about what the other parents think or do as their doing what they feel is right for their daughters; are there financial constraints that have to play into MY decision as a parent and the family provider; in either case she will have to make new friends as based on information provided it sounds like more than half the team left after the final game. On a short note about "friends" you as parents know that throughout life your constantly making and losing friends. When she goes to high school she'll lose several frineds from middle school, when she goes to college more than 90% of her classmates from high school she will never see again within her lifetime. Each time she changes careers or jobs she will lose friends and gain new friends so changing teams now will provide her with a life skill in how to handle both losing and gaining new friends.
Finally, I want to approach the issue on the coach from a different standpoint as everyone else's commits seem to want to hang the coach. In your question you present only a snapshot of one instance in time vice what has occurred over the entire season. If the coaches behavior in this game is indicative of the behavior throughout the season, I have a problem with you, the other parents and the coach. Why, because YOU as PARENTS and LEADERS of your children allowed the season to progress without addressing the issue with the coach. Again, why, as an outsider and a coach trying to look in maybe you all were willing to overlook these issue as long as the team was winning, which apparently they were if they achieved the opportunity to play in a tournament for a national title. If you had watched previous games and practices and this is not the way the coach normally acts, you and the other parents might look at the situation and the pressure on both the coach and your daughters in playing in a National Championship. I'm will not condon what may have been said because I don't know what was said however, the parents could have and should have addressed the issue privately between the group and the coach as soon after the game that was possible when cool heads prevailed. Maybe, if you all had done this the coach may have reflected on his action and issued an apology to both the parents and the kids and if this had occurred maybe the other parents including yourself wouldn't have pulled your children off the team and searched for other teams. Who knows "hind sight is always 20/20". If the action was something that was a one time event and you can afford the fees I would say let your daughter play for the team she wants to play for, if it was a recurring issue, I would address the issue with the coach before entertaining any thoughts on her return. But I would also do some sole searching of myself and question why I allowed that type of coaching around my CHILD to begin with. Coaches and Parents both make mistakes and we both learn and grow from those mistakes as do our children. Good Luck in your decision.
No ones perfect and most people do learn from their mistakes.
Posted by: Michael Smith, CSCS ( Email: ) at 12/17/2009 6:39 AM
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Injury in girl's soccer is epidemic. I should repeat that but won't. You have a coach yelling and screaming at 12 year old girls in soccer, what's the chance that that coach will develop a style of play for his team that will reduce at risk behaviors?
Nobody knows what causes the incidence of ACL tears in girls and boys to be so widely disparate (anywhere from 5:1 to 11:1) but it cannot help when a team's style calls for challenging every ball in their air in an intimidating way, riding dribblers with a heavy shoulder and bump no matter where they are on the field, teaching and encouraging the use of lots of "effective" little moves that often cause an innocent defense challenge to turn into dangerous tackles, slide tackling all over the place, etc.
Until you or one of yours has blown an ACL you cannot imagine what a life altering event such an injury is. Everybody thinks that a sprained ankle, even a badly sprained one, comes with the turf and is no big thing. How many Hall of Fame Basketball coaches are there that have had hip replacements: off the top of my head, Coach K from Duke, Larry Brown, Phil Jackson, Pitino. None to my knowledge ever had a hip injury. They all have had those ankle sprains.
Playing for a natinal championship must be great. But, for a 12 year old, personally I think it nonsense, and downright dangerous. Playing for a coach that pushes players with yelling and abuse, especially when they are playing in an already over-the-top hyped environment (such high end elite teams are almost by definition) passes asking for trouble. I'd avoid it.
Posted by: Rich Cohen ( Email: ) at 12/17/2009 12:36 PM
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You could start by pointing out that your daughter's "old team" doesn't exist any more since a number of families have pulled their players from that team. For many girls, including both of my daughters on team sports, playing with their friends was more important than playing on a "winning" team. Perhaps if your daughter is friends with some of the players who left the original team, she could play with them on a different new team. Finally, for a player at that age, there is value in her being coached by a variety of coaches. Different coaches have different strengths, so this is an opportunity for her to broaden her skills, as well as possibly make new friends who share her love of the game. Those interpersonal skills will serve her far better in the course of life than having a couple of seasons with a winning team, and are a far safer bet than gambling that the old team will continue to win when they can't hang on to their players.
Posted by: John Henderson ( Email: ) at 12/17/2009 9:10 PM
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What I said about injury, particularly ACL tears, in soccer goes for basketball as well, as does the ever increasing roughness and athleticism of the play. In fact, there is more change of direction going to the basket in the women's game then the men's, from high school age on. In the men's game, changing direction near the rim is far less prevalent because of the number of really long off-the-ball shotblockers. In the women's game, off the ball shot blocking is less a threat, so there is more change of direction at the rim, which are killers for knees and ankles.
Developing a style of play that minimizes these at risk behaviors will provide the best avenue for your daughters to enjoy a great sport and stay healthy.
My best guess is that in both soccer and basketball, developing offensive styles that depend on ball movement, movement off the ball, and catch and shoot, rather than a lot of dribbling, is most likely to reduce the incidence of injury. On the other side of the ball, pressure defenses have their price.
All leg injuries, even turned ankles are serious; they will affect how your daughters carry themselves forever, and often develop into much more serious problems in the out yeas. Finding coaches who are committed to a style of play that minimizes at risk behaviors ought to be a priority.
Posted by: rich cohen ( Email: ) at 12/18/2009 10:07 PM
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PCA RESPONSE BY ERIC EISENDRATH, LEAD TRAINER-NEW YORK
I would strongly recommend you trust your gut instincts concerning this situation. Clearly, the reaction of the previous coaches was disconcerting enough for several families to remove their daughters. As the parents of a 12-year-old, my primary concern would be to place her in an environment that nurtures her love for the game, and allows her to learn and flourish.
Playing in an atmosphere where coaches are "extremely harsh and loud" is not conducive to maintaining a passion for the game or an atmosphere of player development. While your child may initially not be pleased because she continues to miss her former club, research supports your decision. Players coached in a "Mastery Climate" versus a "Win-At-All-Costs" climate perform better, are less anxious, work harder and stick to tasks longer. These are traits that will serve her well, both on and off the court.
Finally, as a parent of a daughter myself, I would be troubled by her comment that she "didn't mind getting yelled at." It is not OK for her to be treated this way. While your daughter may not embrace your decision in the short term, I feel confident that it is certainly the right choice in the long run.
Posted by: Eric Eisendrath ( Email: ) at 1/7/2010 9:23 PM
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